Why I'm an Atheist

[fdrjk]

.quote author=reaper link=topic=15531.msg159234#msg159234 date=1296247801

You always delete the [link=topic=15531.msg159234#msg159234 date=1296247801] part of your quotes.

[reaper]

yeah I see it, I don't know how to use that though and don't really feel like learning it

 

[fdrjk]

yeah I see it, I don't know how to use that though and don't really feel like learning it

 

Learning it? The quote button does it for you. 

[reaper]

hmmm nifty

 

[[BTF]Sigma]

[fdrjk]

 

[Tubby]

Rather, I tend towards accepting the idea of Darwinian evolution as a more reasonable process around the development and evolution of man, as this concept is more universially accepted within the scientific community - which applies far more rigorous processes to the understanding of their beliefs than any religious community I am currently aware of..

so we found some skulls of gorilla like people, and found out that small changes over long periods of time can have big effects.  not a very satisfying or encompassing answer, now why do _you_ think that is?

The evidence of Darwinian evolution is happening right here and now, all around us, everywhere. From the moment of every child's birth to the moment of his or her death:


Which babies die in infanthood? The weak and the sick ones.

Which children get bullied & teased at school? The weak ones, the disabled ones, and those who look different.

Which young adults fail to find a mate? The weak, sick, and disabled ones, and those who don't conform to the current standards of physical attractiveness.

Which mature adults fail to prosper in their careers, goals, and ambitions? The ones who don't conform to the social ideals of the wider community (the herd).

Which older adults exit life as failures and outcasts? All of the above.


You don't need to rely on 'skulls of gorilla-like people' to see Darwinian evolution at work - all you need to do is visit your local nursery, school, or retirement home.

[Tubby]

And just on school bullying - this is a classic and very revealing example of Darwinian evolution at work:

The school bully is the perfect example of 'survival of the fittest'. He dominates and oppresses the 'weaker of his species' in order to gain social and physical privelige over them. He's carrying out this act of dominance because, in the long run, such dominance will give him a head-start in passing his genes over to the next generation - Girls inherently like their boyfriends to be 'tough' and 'strong', and the bully proves this to them by his dominance over the 'weaker' boys. He'll get more girlfriends than the kid he defeats, which is what Darwinian evolution is all about.

The fact that a school bully may not yet even be 'interested' in girls further illustrates that survival of the fittest is an inherent - as opposed to acquired - part of the human condition.

As I said previously, I don't like it any more than anyone else. I've simply come to the understanding that this is how the world works, unfortunately. And I don't have the ability to fool myself into thinking otherwise.

[haunted]

Talking about human evolution today is the least convincing, imo, being that it has slowed down TREMENDOUSLY. This is due to civilization; Natural selection thrives under barbaric/primitive conditions. The one about bully's getting the girls..... reminds me of something silly in highschool that might happen on occasion, although you relate it with the concept properly. I mean think about the actual amount of assholes(who also have "superior" genes) that you meet in highschool that actually have kid(s) with someone possessing "superior" genes(that they met through the process you mentioned), -AND- in the process inhibit someone with "inferior" genes of producing offspring themselves in their entire lifetime? I would assume this statistic would be ridiculously low, or at least I hope.

There are so, so many reasons for civilization hindering natural selection. In primitive times, people did not only have 1 child due to financial reasons. No... they would bone everything that moves instinctively. Also, the "weak" of today thrive in comparison to back then... the tiniest infection, cut, illness, etc. would mean one's death in the past. The reasons are obvious, I'm sure you can think of more yourself.

All I'm saying is that today provides the worst examples for progressive human evolution, aka natural selection among our species. Life expectancy is a good one though, being that humans now have more time to reproduce.

[Tubby]

What I have a problem with is saying how it applies to life and man.  For one evolution is just the start, like a method once the conditions of the universe are correct, and you get a good planet, things might happen.  In addition to that, the start is just an explosion into planets and stars which form life.  A little odd if you ask me, but I have much more to say than just that, and I welcome the arguments.

I think you're looking at it backwards, which is what so many people seem to do.

You're saying that the conditions of the universe had to be 'just right' for life to evolve. Actually, I think that's a really selfish and egocentric way of looking at things. Maybe, instead, we evolved around the conditions of the universe.

In other words, instead of everything just happening to be perfect for us, maybe we evolved within the confines of what the universe presented to us.

And to our amoebic ancestors, of course.

[Tubby]

Talking about human evolution today is the least convincing, imo, being that it has slowed down TREMENDOUSLY. This is due to civilization; Natural selection thrives under barbaric/primitive conditions. The one about bully's getting the girls..... reminds me of something silly in highschool that might happen on occasion, although you relate it with the concept properly. I mean think about the actual amount of assholes(who also have "superior" genes) that you meet in highschool that actually have kid(s) with someone possessing "superior" genes(that they met through the process you mentioned), -AND- in the process inhibit someone with "inferior" genes of producing offspring themselves in their entire lifetime? I would assume this statistic would be ridiculously low, or at least I hope.

There are so, so many reasons for civilization hindering natural selection. In primitive times, people did not only have 1 child due to financial reasons. No... they would bone everything that moves instinctively. Also, the "weak" of today thrive in comparison to back then... the tiniest infection, cut, illness, etc. would mean one's death in the past. The reasons are obvious, I'm sure you can think of more yourself.

All I'm saying is that today provides the worst examples for progressive human evolution, aka natural selection among our species. Life expectancy is a good one, being that humans now have more time to reproduce.

Haunted, I think you're wrong in both your arguments:

You say that the 'weak' of today thrive in comparrison to those of our ancestors. Yes, perhaps they're thriving as individuals, but as for finding a mate to pass on their genes....? No. The inherently 'strong' still dominate here. Just put yourself into the mind of a woman and ask, who would you rather date? The little sickly guy or the tough hunk? Enuff said. And that's still as relevant today as it was 1000 years ago. Or a million years ago.

As for life expectancy giving us more time to reproduce, that's a moot point. With reference to what I said above, you could live for 100 years but if you're sickly, weak, or disabled it's unlikely you're going to get much chance to pass on your genes in that respect...

Besides, the fact that sick or disabled people live longer now is not due to any act of a benevolent god. It's simply due to artificial scientific and medical advances. If nature had it's way, those people would still be dead.

[haunted]

did you even read mine?

  but if you can't understand that the concept of natural selection("survival of the fittest") was much more applicable in primitive times, when "survival" was our highest priority, then maybe you should research atheism a little more before calling yourself an atheist because there's obviously some stuff you don't understand.

The examples that you use on this thread.. like putting yourself in a woman's shoes and asking yourself if you want the tough hunk or the sickly man (and then "Enuff said" as if that actually draws a conclusion)... uhh no offense, but that is the most elementary way to look at this possible. I think you need to do some research.

[reaper]

Bullies probably do asshole things because they have some insecurities, out of boredome, etc.  That doesn't really have much to do with evolution.  What goes around comes around anyways.  Eventually someone just won't be able to take them anymore and they'll get stabbed in the face, or go to the jail down the road.  

You're saying that the conditions of the universe had to be 'just right' for life to evolve. Actually, I think that's a really selfish and egocentric way of looking at things. Maybe, instead, we evolved around the conditions of the universe.

seems highly unlikey especially since life is perfect.  You don't see computers forming themselves, and things just happen to be the way they want.
 

[haunted]

Yes reaper, pretending that highschool analogy makes any sense is just..... silly. Highschool is a pretend world. I mean I can say from my own experiences that the biggest bully in my ENTIRE highschool was the smallest, craziest, and biggest idiot out of everyone. He did not get any girls. I actually got in 4 fights with him and won every single time(guy is 4 years older than me as well). Once he flung my door open and started punching me in the face with my seat belt on backing up out of a driveway(where I just took a 2 hour nap from being so drunk and not wanting to drive)... I backed up over a fence while ripping the rearview mirror off my ceiling then beat him in the face with it around 20x and threw him out of my truck. That was the 4th and last time.

Just a horrible example, assuming that the majority is rational/normal. If they didn't already realize it in highschool they will in their 20's(that highschool bullies are pitiful).

[reaper]

You say that the 'weak' of today thrive in comparrison to those of our ancestors. Yes, perhaps they're thriving as individuals, but as for finding a mate to pass on their genes....? No. The inherently 'strong' still dominate here. Just put yourself into the mind of a woman and ask, who would you rather date? The little sickly guy or the tough hunk? Enuff said. And that's still as relevant today as it was 1000 years ago. Or a million years ago.

Who says they're not f**cking other 'weak' people?  Also people from freak shows and the likes have been known to get it on with 2000+ people throughought the course of their lives.