Stephen Hawking: Big Bang an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics

[The Dreaming Dragon]

I once had a brief conversation with Harlan Ellison. He doesn't believe in angels or aliens either and he asked me,as a test subject,if I believed in Ghosts.

 I said I did,and as he shook his head to dismiss me and my primative beliefs ,I elaborated:

I believe in physics. I believe in electrons. I understand that the electrical charges in the human brain and nervous system are these electrons,and electrons are made of smaller particles called neutrinos that reside only partially in this reality as we know it. And I believe that the paths these discharges forge in the brains synapses are unique to the individual,and the pattern these synapses make can be defined as a Soul since from it we derive our conscienceness. And the neutrinos that are the components of the electrons defining these patterns make even more subtle patterns in that "other place" out of this dimension.

I can imagine what discharge of power happens when a person feels the intensity of emotion that in folklore empower a ghost to linger its perceptions back into this dimension after it loses its link to fleh.Some memories remain vivid in a person's mind for many years...and so why can't that pattern of electrisity recorded in our brains have its echo in some off dimension? And laly,I believe is aspects of physics we as yet do not understand.

I "believe' in Ghosts because I can theorize as explanation for their existance. Same thing with alien life:its against laws of probability that some other type of life would not evolve into sentience,and in time become spacefaring.I'd almost call it arrogance. And being smart enough to be spacefaring also implies that they'd treat with these Earthlings with great secrecy and greater guardedness.

Harlan understood. What passes for God may be the Operating System we are privledged to unravel.A Science of religion,and a Religion of Science.And whether this Arcitectural Arc affects our existance on a personal level...or if It Can,or Should,or Will Anyway...is another thread entirely.
Almost.
 

[Arm0r]

1. Longer life

2. MOAR BRAIN POWA

did I win?

[reaper]

QUADZ: THINK OF TWO WAYS TO IMPROVE ON WHAT EVOLUTION PRODUCED[/color]

COMPUTER: ACKNOWLEDGED[/color]
COMPUTER: LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WITHOUT PAIN THERE IS NO PLEASURE[/color]

QUADZ: THINK OF TWO WAYS TO IMPROVE ON WHAT EVOLUTION PRODUCED[/color]

COMPUTER: ACKNOWLEDGED[/color]
COMPUTER: LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WITHOUT EVIL THERE IS NO GOOD[/color]

QUADZ: THINK OF TWO WAYS TO IMPROVE ON WHAT EVOLUTION PRODUCED[/color]

COMPUTER: ACKNOWLEDGED[/color]
COMPUTER: LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE PLAN, YOU CANNOT IMPROVE UPON IT, YOU ARE
 PART OF IT[/color]

QUADZ: I NEED TO GET OFF THIS SHIP[/color]

COMPUTER: ACKNOWLEDGED[/color]
COMPUTER: SAVE THE SPECIMEN[/color]

QUADZ: WE ARE GOING TO DIE, WE NEED TO GET OFF THIS SHIP[/color]

COMPUTER: ACKNOWLEDGED[/color]
COMPUTER: SAVE THE SPECIMEN[/color]

[quadz]

QUADZ: THINK OF TWO WAYS TO IMPROVE ON WHAT EVOLUTION PRODUCED[/color]

COMPUTER: ACKNOWLEDGED[/color]
COMPUTER: LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WITHOUT PAIN THERE IS NO PLEASURE[/color]

QUADZ: THINK OF TWO WAYS TO IMPROVE ON WHAT EVOLUTION PRODUCED[/color]

COMPUTER: ACKNOWLEDGED[/color]
COMPUTER: LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WITHOUT EVIL THERE IS NO GOOD[/color]

QUADZ: THINK OF TWO WAYS TO IMPROVE ON WHAT EVOLUTION PRODUCED[/color]

COMPUTER: ACKNOWLEDGED[/color]
COMPUTER: LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE PLAN, YOU CANNOT IMPROVE UPON IT, YOU ARE
 PART OF IT[/color]

^C
Break in 100
Ok
LIST
1 'REAPER.BAS
100 INPUT A$
110 PRINT "ACKNOWLEDGED"
120 X=1+INT(RND*20)
130 ON X GOSUB 1000,1001,1002,1003,1004,1005,1006,1007,1008,1009,1010,1011,1012,1013,1014,1015,1016,1017,1018,1019
140 GOTO 100
1000 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WITHOUT PAIN THERE IS NO PLEASURE":RETURN
1001 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WITHOUT EVIL THERE IS NO GOOD":RETURN
1002 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE PLAN, YOU CANNOT IMPROVE UPON IT, YOU ARE PART OF IT":RETURN
1003 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND BY DEFAULT THE AHTEISTS HAVE AN AGENDA":RETURN
1004 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND SCIENCE HAS REVEALED NOTHING IN COMPARISON TO WHAT IS SELF-EVIDENT":RETURN
1005 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND IT'S SUCH A SELF-EVIDENT PROPHECY THAT SCIENCE HAS SHOWN US NOTHING":RETURN
1006 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND I MUCH PREFER ISLAM TO THE BLIND THEORY OF EVOLUTION":RETURN
1007 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND WHILE WE CAN HAVE A THEORY OF EVOLUTION, WHAT IT APPLIES TO IS ANOTHER MATTER":RETURN
1008 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND TAKE A LOOK AT WWII, IF PEOPLE WERE ATHIEST, AND WEREN'T SERVING THE LORD, WE'D BE FUCKED - WELCOME TO REALITY":RETURN
1009 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND PEOPLE GROWING UP IN HARSH TERRITORIES WITHOUT FAITH WOULD JUST BECOME EVIL":RETURN
1010 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND THAT'S THE OUTCOME FROM THE ORDER AND PURPOSE AND PERFECT CONDITIONS":RETURN
1011 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND I'D PUT MORE MONEY ON THERE BEING A PERSONAL GOD TO MAN, THAN TO ANY OF THESE THEORIES":RETURN
1012 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND I DON'T THINK PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS TRYING TO FILL IN THE GAPS, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE  BEEN BELIEVING IN GOD A LONG TIME":RETURN
1013 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND YOU ARE FORGETTING IT'S INTRINSIC IN PEOPLE TO FEAR GOD TO SOME EXTENT":RETURN
1014 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND SUFFERING ON EARTH IS A RESULT OF SATIN":RETURN
1015 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND YES THE BIBLE IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE AS PROOF":RETURN
1016 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND I'M SAYING THAT 'THIS' WORLD, 'THIS' UNIVERSE WAS PERFECTLY DESIGNED BY HIM FOR US":RETURN
1017 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND GOD CHOSE TO DESIGN IT LIKE HE DID FOR US USING THE BIG BANG METHOD":RETURN
1018 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT A GOD ISN'T SAYING MUCH, BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE AGAINST A HIGHER POWER":RETURN
1019 PRINT "LIFE IS HARMONIOUS AND TAKE A LOOK AT JEFFEREY DAHLMER, AND WHAT THE GHETTO WOULD BE LIKE IF PEOPLE WERE ATHIEST":RETURN
Ok

Yup.  About what I figured...

[|iR|Focalor]

I imagine "scientists" wouldn't want to get into these lines of questioning,

Jesus Christ. I would hope not. I would hope scientists would be busy doing other things that would yield some benefit, like curing cancer and AIDS or designing a safer zipper for my jeans so it won't rip my nutsuck in half.

Not much science involved in what I said since it's just a philosophical opinion about things which can't be measured or observed by science anyway. And I hope you realize that my tone in that post, as well as the myriads of other undoubtedly anti-christian posts I've ever made, doesn't necessarily mean that I'm intentionally talking down to you or insinuating that I think you're a total idiot. I'm not that obtuse. I may strongly disagree with the philosophies of Christianity, and I may voice my opinions in a way that is disrespectful, but I have personally known Christians who I would never describe as "idiots". I may feel that the philosophy is contrary to reality as I understand it and thusly idiotic, but I also bet that you're 10 times better at math than I am.

Now if we could just work on your grammar.

[deft]

reaper, you are so dumb - fo real.

[The Dreaming Dragon]

I thought of two reasons...

This Thread,and these Posts.

Are they working yet?

 

[|iR|Focalor]

I don't know exactly where this discussion went or left off or anything, but...

Last night I was watching a 1 hr program on the Science channel about Hawkings revelatory theory about black holes and how it's possible that matter which crosses the event horizon of a black hole can cease to exist. Apparently a good many of his colleagues thought such an idea to be heresy. I admit, it seems unlikely that matter can altogether exist and then NOT exist. I can't even begin to understand the mathematics of it, but I can certainly understand the concept that particles can't just disappear. They may "seem" to disappear, but they merely change form, like a solid turning to a gas for example.

I can certain appreciate his uncanny ability to resist his disease. It's astonishing that he has lived as long as he has with ALS, and even further astonishing that he has been able to adapt to his circumstances, and even MORE amazing that he can manage to keep a WIFE AROUND to feed him and wipe his ass and whatever else she has to do that most people would say "HELL NO!" to.

Then at the end of the program, it seemed to climax by him coming up with some amazing discovery that he told everyone about during some kind of egghead conference. And... it was probably the most disappointing SHIT I've ever heard in my life. Basically he says it doesn't matter that things which are consumed by a black hole cease to exist because in alternate dimensions, there is no black hole there.

Um... What? It took him 30 years to come to this enormous conclusion? No proof at all. You can't prove that alternate dimensions exist. If you're going to base further scientific endeavors on such a ridiculous theory, you might as well say that God and Jesus and the flying spaghetti monster also exist in some other dimension and base science on that too.

I don't know, like I said, I just watched ONE program about it, I haven't bothered read any books authored by Hawking that might go further in depth on the subject. Sounds like complete and utter bullshit to me.

[yahoo]

Like in contrast to the Theory of conservation.
However, what baffles me is that within the blackhole everything is packed so tight and can exist only in a singularity. So is this singualarity a form of energy or can even be called a substance?

[yahoo]

Another thing that I would like to be enlightened is reagrding to the speed limit of the universe.

Correct me if Im wrong. Nothing goes faster than the speed of light. Theoritically if your on a space ship as you approach light speed time slows down. Upon reaching lightspeed, time stops. So grating that we will equate lightspeed as zero in a number scale. However if granting you can really go faster than the speed of light, time goes backward (like a time machine going back to the past).

Now in relation to the above, the big bang started from something infinitely small and expanded (exploded) to something like the size of a ball in a billionth of a billionth of a billionth of a second. Thus Its effective expansion rate was moving way faster than the speed of light.

So if my understanding was correct, what happened to the Law of Physics regarding the universal speed limit?

Secondly, moving faster than lightspeed, wouldnt that expansion comes in a loop?

[quadz]

Basically he says it doesn't matter that things which are consumed by a black hole cease to exist because in alternate dimensions, there is no black hole there.

Um... What? It took him 30 years to come to this enormous conclusion? No proof at all. You can't prove that alternate dimensions exist.

It's common for theories in physics to make predictions we can't test yet.  For example, quarks were proposed in 1964, and we can't really "see" them, and it took years for the experimental evidence to arrive.  Behavior relating to the sixth quark predicted by the theory wasn't observed until 1995.

When the theory of general relativity was proposed by Einstein in 1915, there was scant empirical evidence to suport it.  Really accurate tests confirming the theory weren't possible technologically until decades later, circa the 1960's.  (Einstein died in 1955.)  Indeed, I recall reading that early on, Einstein had made a prediction ("if general relativity is true, then <X>") that he himself believed would never be able to be tested--apparently the measurements required were practically unimaginable given the state of technology at the time--nevertheless, after Einstein's death his prediction was able to be confirmed.  (Sorry, I don't recall which prediction... might have been about light bending in gravitational fields.)

In Hawking's case, I'm guessing he was probably referring to baby universes:

The theory surmises that a collapsing black hole causes the emergence of a new universe on the "other side", whose fundamental constant parameters (speed of light, Planck length and so forth) may differ slightly from those of the universe where the black hole collapsed. Each universe therefore gives rise to as many new universes as it has black holes.

While it's true that we can't currently test for the existence of other universes, there are at least ideas being proposed for how they might be able to be detected, albeit indirectly.

If you're going to base further scientific endeavors on such a ridiculous theory, you might as well say that God and Jesus and the flying spaghetti monster also exist in some other dimension and base science on that too.

Except unlike God, Jesus, and the spaghetti monster, when a leading phycisist proposes a new theory, there will be equations to back it up, which are built on top of, and mesh with the existing theories.  It's not the natural-language description of the idea that counts, but rather the math, which other experts in the field can evaluate and criticize rationally.

The difference between this process and the debating of religious claims cannot be overstated.


Regards,

[reaper]

When the theory of general relativity was proposed by Einstein in 1915, there was scant empirical evidence to support it.  Really accurate tests confirming the theory weren't possible technologically until decades later, circa the 1960's.  (Einstein died in 1955.)

What I gathered from the audio he created explaining his theories was he was working with the contradictions between existing theories.  Nothing should of gone faster than the speed of light, which electronics were obeying, but that didn't agree with basic physical laws that were accurate enough to predict planets movements.

While everything appeared to work in 3 dimensional space (coordinate system:x,yz), situations could easily be imaged where one of the theories was not correct.  Either Newton's laws were not accurate, or you could travel faster than the speed of light.  While we see things all day long, according to Euclidian geometry: a 3 dimensional coordinate system, you can create situations where a contradiction is  present.  Once he found the proper relationship between space and time, he could explain the contradictions.  Fairly soon after evidence was observed during eclipses showing light shift, that agreed with his theories.  But even without the evidence, it was pretty straightforward: physical laws didn't agree.  By highlighting a relationship between space and time, he made a more accurate theory.  We can see this now easily by looking at the time on a plane flying across the earth east to west, or west to east, or in the accuracy of using the theories for sending objects into far into the solar system.

Hawking's theories seem a little more out there in my opinion, and he doesn't have all the data he'd like to work with.  Also I don't think they're quite as important.  And they don't matter like religion does, or how Einstien's theories did.

[Whirlingdervish]

they don't matter like religion does

'Religion' doesn't matter at all.

 

[kren.Z]

Last night I was watching a 1 hr program on the Science channel about Hawkings revelatory theory about black holes and how it's possible that matter which crosses the event horizon of a black hole can cease to exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI9ImScQGAo

[fdrjk]

inb4 flame thread