Author Topic: This is why government healthcare is bad  (Read 14347 times)

Offline sinner

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2009, 10:25:45 AM »
And may I add, seing you americans arguments on free health care, i understand all the points. But i think free health care comes with other government responsabilities, and its also the People's responsability to take care of themselves.

I think all the issues we currently have are simply caused by our way of life, our society's phylosophy which is capitalism.

Unfortunatly, capitalism's best times is in the past, now we are extreme materialists who wants the biggest house, car, burger, boobs, etc. The capitalism has pasted its peak, so much money is in the wrong hands, for the wrong reasons. The mentality of capitalism is to sell something to someone to earn a profit, so then you can buy something overpriced from the guy next door... Profit, obviously profit decreases the chance of others to develop properly since the clever ones take from them. This means that eventually, the gap between classes will be so high, that there is no way it can evolve anymore...

I am just hoping one day we understand that the best way to advance in our history as a society is to live for human kind, not for our own selves. I believe our vices, personal phylosophies and behaviour is directly related to our way of living as a capitalist society, which is to profit of the other...

« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 10:27:31 AM by sinner »
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Offline reaper

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2009, 10:38:44 AM »
I'm pretty sure almost nobody but insurance companies is okay with denying coverage for a pre-existing condition.
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Offline Whirlingdervish

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2009, 10:41:30 AM »
what do 'conservatives' believe we should do in regards to people who cannot work like the blind, or the mentally disabled?

do they just get to die of starvation and disease, or do we throw them from a cliff when they're babies onto a pile of tiny little skeletons?

What I find funny about this Derv is that under the current 'Obamacare' heath reform bill on the table, in a warp around way of words it states people with these handicaps would be likely to receive a lesser quality of treatment than they do now or none at all depending on their state or age.

That statement seems to be false.


How would it be possible to receive worse treatment when you receive no treatement at all under the current system?
Literally, right now, if you do not have health insurance and/or money you have 2 options for medical care in the US:

Defrauding Emergency Rooms and practicing medicine on yourself.


Insurance companies will find every excuse not to insure you, if you have a pre-existing condition like blindness or cancer or some virus etc.. Often times that excuse is your pre-existing condition. I fail to see how forcing insurance companies to at least offer some level of coverage to these people (even if it's shitty) is worse than them having no coverage and having to pay for every bit of their medical care out of pocket or steal it from the rest of us by fraud that ruins the viability of our emergency medical treatment centers.


I don't say this because I am some sort of liberal sympathizer who thinks people who dont want to work still deserve welfare.
I may be leftward leaning but my position is fairly centrist on most things, as I can often bring myself to see both sides of a problem without falling into black/white or good/bad stereotyping to do my thinking for me.

Just like those people who foolishly claim to be about fiscal responsibility while blowing my money on foreign wars, I care a great deal about where my tax dollars go and who is using them, and I don't want them given to the undeserving while others suffer.

Unlike these people, I don't rely on parroted illogical arguments to decide on my opinion of where my tax dollars need to go and why, and I'm not fool enough to claim that we already pay too much in taxes for the services we recieve from our country.
(You really can't put a monetary value on the freedoms and the standard of living that we have here that allow us to even own property and earn decent wages.)

My position comes from flaws that I can see in the current system, and not imagined flaws with a system (which is actually 3 different bills so far by different groups) that hasn't even made it past congress or made a single real change so far.

I cannot connect at all with the complete empathy failure of the modern day republican that pretty much deny that any bill we pass in this area would be better than the status quo, and that having no social services at all is better than having all encompassing services that a minority of the beneficiaries defraud.

This would seem to be an opinion put forth by people who have no concept of the term "middle ground" and who rely on increasingly radical (and thus less applicable and logical) ideologies to retain a grip on power by fooling people stupid enough to subscribe to such tripe into fighting for them, while they collect money from the industry groups that they actually represent.



« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 10:43:34 AM by Whirlingdervish(Q2C) »
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Offline jägermonsta

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2009, 11:00:13 AM »
Huh? You act as if all deaf dumb blind people have no treatment.

It is to bad we had to save the greedy rich

Yes, anyone who has succeed in America is obviously greedy scum and don't deserve what they have....  :ohlord:


Without them, America would fail.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 11:08:02 AM by jägermonsta »
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Offline jägermonsta

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2009, 11:07:08 AM »
I am just hoping one day we understand that the best way to advance in our history as a society is to live for human kind, not for our own selves. I believe our vices, personal phylosophies and behaviour is directly related to our way of living as a capitalist society, which is to profit of the other...

You're out of your mind. You want everyone to be equal on all levels? That's not advancing, that's taking a step backwards.

Of course I want to profit from others??? You're asking people to have no sense of self accomplishment... perhaps that's the Canadian way of thinking but that's not how America was designed. The land of opportunity? The America Dream? All fading away with socialist attitudes like yours.

You speak as a true communist.
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Offline sinner

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2009, 11:57:32 AM »
lol

You have no clue what the message is do you? I aint talking about any system that is currently in place, socialism or communism, nor capitalism, and im far from being out of my mind. I think that people that still believe is systems that are soon-to-be out dated and dont evolve or change are the ones out of their minds.

Is it true that a lot of the technology and scientific facts weve learned in the past 100 years, in 2009, are used for for making profit? Theres a curve in the civilized world right now, and if you think that capitalism, socialism or communism will still be around for ages, you are out of your head.

Human kind is always evolving, and in years ahead, we will probably look back at our time like we look back at the middle age or renaissance... Maybe capitalism gave us many good things, but im saying this system is meant to change and probably disappear and be replaced by something more constructive collectively. Only time will tell, and our social behaviour will also evolved like it always did...

I am just hoping one day we understand that the best way to advance in our history as a society is to live for human kind, not for our own selves. I believe our vices, personal phylosophies and behaviour is directly related to our way of living as a capitalist society, which is to profit of the other...

You're out of your mind. You want everyone to be equal on all levels? That's not advancing, that's taking a step backwards.

Of course I want to profit from others??? You're asking people to have no sense of self accomplishment... perhaps that's the Canadian way of thinking but that's not how America was designed. The land of opportunity? The America Dream? All fading away with socialist attitudes like yours.

You speak as a true communist.


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Offline reaper

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2009, 12:32:52 PM »
Quote from: reaper
It is to bad we had to save the greedy rich

Quote from: jaeger
Yes, anyone who has succeed in America is obviously greedy scum and don't deserve what they have.... 

Previously I was talking about the causes of potential economic meltdown.  One being banking issues, the other being insurance issues, both looming failures were thwarted by tax payer dollers.  Are you unable to see how million dollar bonuses in failing companies is an issue?  Or is the sole cause of these isssues mandated loans given out to people who coudn't pay them?  It seems pretty easy to see the latter is the lesser effect...
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Offline jägermonsta

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2009, 12:48:52 PM »
The current health care situation in America is NOT a crisis. I'd be more concerned about us being incinerated by our nut job enemies like north korea or iran... but shit we should certainly cut back on military and ignore them so we can worry about our illegal aliens getting health care. oh wait obama says illegals arent going to get health care... wait you know why?! because he's going to make EVERY illegal a citizen, cross the boarder and get what I get as if you lived here all your life.

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Offline Whirlingdervish

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2009, 01:02:11 PM »
"because he's going to make EVERY illegal a citizen"

 :nosign:

He also didn't take all of your guns, he didn't magically lose the war in iraq instantaneously, and he didn't force everyone to be a muslim.


Don't you get tired of echoing the most idiotic lies that are spread by members of the republican party?


PS:

that 11 million illegal immigrants you're talking about would be the minority compared to the 300 million legal American citizens living here, if they were given a path to citizenship which they haven't gotten yet and probably won't ever get. Even if they did offer a way to do this, not all of them would follow that path, so it would be less than 11 million out of more than 300 million.

This goes back to my point about not punishing the entire group based on the actions of a minority among it..

Kinda like if one nutbar republican went and shot an abortion doctor. This doesn't give us a free ticket to imprison everyone who follows or spreads the kind of radical ideology that causes such things.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 01:07:07 PM by Whirlingdervish(Q2C) »
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Offline jägermonsta

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2009, 01:08:23 PM »
Don't put words in my mouth. It was a concern that he may infringe my right to own a firearm, but for all that other typical liberal shit your speaking, find some new ammo to shoot at me. seriously, it's the same insults over and over. please, you people gotta start trying.

You fucking watch, right after this health care disaster he shoves down our throats the next thing on the list is amnesty for illegals. it's part of his agenda, fuck you voted for the guy, you should know this
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Offline jägermonsta

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2009, 01:09:37 PM »
Kinda like if one nutbar republican went and shot an abortion doctor. This doesn't give us a free ticket to imprison everyone who follows or spreads the kind of radical ideology that causes such things.

wow nice example man. typical shit, go right to the extreme case. how bout the fuck face that bit off the fingers of an old man... woah...
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Offline Whirlingdervish

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2009, 01:46:33 PM »
Don't put words in my mouth.


I don't need to. The republicans already have, even when the words were ridiculous, not based on any type of fact, and outright stupid on occasion.


Here's a few snippets of your statements that read like the '08/'09 Republican Propaganda manual:

If he can't pledge his allegiance to the country he's trying to run then why is he even bothering.  :humm:

Being around the age 50 after being diagnosed with a very serious illness but told you won't be treated due to your age? You are referred to a "How to die." Specialist...


This bill covers EVERYONE in the US. Citizens or not.

Most tax paying, voting, American people DO NOT want this. The voices are loud, we just have to hope the corruption going on in the White House currently doesn't sneak this in.

They've been making changes since 1930 that I think should all be eliminated.  Change to me mean more laws and more taxes and less rights.  It's really scary to think that this guy has gotten this far.  The only good thing that could come of him being elected is that I will be going out on Nov. 5th and buying an AR and a Mossberg.

I care about my guns, the war and my taxes. All of which will be effected with that incompetent, inexperience, hollywood fool in the white house.

The celebrity bit does work and is working. Look at how the man acts, he thinks he's a movie star. Besides if it didn't work why would I be stating it? Perhaps you're out of touch.

I'd rather have someone who knows foreign policy, knows the military, has a record of getting things done.  Not someone who voted present 130 times in the senate.  his choices are Yes or No, and he votes Present?  How is that person supposed to be the lead executive if he can't make a Yes/No decision?

The fundamental difference is Democrats want power to take power from the people, Republicans want power to give power to the people.
 
Republicans want people to be responsible for their actions and not rely on the government for welfare/wic/foodstamps/housing, they want the central government to be small because every state is different and should have more control over what is best for its' citizens, and more so that people should not be burdened by laws and taxes. 
 
Dems want to inflate the size of the government, make people dependent on the government, because what a great way to keep voters (give them welfare to they can make money by not working, who would want to vote for the guy taking that away).  The want to control everything you do by creating more and more laws, and charging more taxes to go into their pocket.  They are just really good at making it sound like they are helping people.

It was a derogatory statement and you can tell by the reaction it got the second he said it... pretty low blow to be calling her a pig.

What a sexist bastard. ;)

patriotic to pay taxes? redistribute income?  sounds like we're heading towards becoming the U.S.S.A.

Why is it that when George Bush wants to put money into the economy it's called a bailout, but when Barry Obama does it the media calls it a Stimulus?  And the best part is it won't stimulate anything, cutting taxes stimulates the economy, it's the only proven thing to do it!


After this (which only took me a couple minutes to gather up) is there any reason that I should assume that you won't just parrot stupid lies in the future? I doubt I even scratched the surface when it comes to examples that support my position.

 :thumbsup:
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Offline krez

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2009, 02:29:49 PM »
Another proposition that should be added to the ****** bill:

In order to receive free health care you must:
a.) Be either retired or currently employed for 1 year (some variation to protect those laid off)
b.) Never have been convicted of a felony

If you do not meet these two criteria the ER has every right to deny you coverage if you dont have insurance or the $ to pay it.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 05:55:06 AM by [BTF]Gator »
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Offline DaHanG

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2009, 02:43:37 PM »
You fucking watch, right after this health care disaster he shoves down our throats the next thing on the list is amnesty for illegals. it's part of his agenda, fuck you voted for the guy, you should know this

Yeah, I don't want a single payer system where I have no choice where the top health care providing nations do this. Oh wait, a public option crammed down my throat? Fuck that.

Illegal aliens becoming legal? I've never heard Obama or mention this, but some right-wing commentators have suggested this in the absence of evidence. I therefore think this should come to the front of my mind and get me worked up.
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Offline jägermonsta

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Re: This is why government healthcare is bad
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2009, 04:32:31 PM »
Don't put words in my mouth.


I don't need to. The republicans already have, even when the words were ridiculous, not based on any type of fact, and outright stupid on occasion.


Here's a few snippets of your statements that read like the '08/'09 Republican Propaganda manual:

If he can't pledge his allegiance to the country he's trying to run then why is he even bothering.  :humm:

Being around the age 50 after being diagnosed with a very serious illness but told you won't be treated due to your age? You are referred to a "How to die." Specialist...


This bill covers EVERYONE in the US. Citizens or not.

Most tax paying, voting, American people DO NOT want this. The voices are loud, we just have to hope the corruption going on in the White House currently doesn't sneak this in.

They've been making changes since 1930 that I think should all be eliminated.  Change to me mean more laws and more taxes and less rights.  It's really scary to think that this guy has gotten this far.  The only good thing that could come of him being elected is that I will be going out on Nov. 5th and buying an AR and a Mossberg.

I care about my guns, the war and my taxes. All of which will be effected with that incompetent, inexperience, hollywood fool in the white house.

The celebrity bit does work and is working. Look at how the man acts, he thinks he's a movie star. Besides if it didn't work why would I be stating it? Perhaps you're out of touch.

I'd rather have someone who knows foreign policy, knows the military, has a record of getting things done.  Not someone who voted present 130 times in the senate.  his choices are Yes or No, and he votes Present?  How is that person supposed to be the lead executive if he can't make a Yes/No decision?

The fundamental difference is Democrats want power to take power from the people, Republicans want power to give power to the people.
 
Republicans want people to be responsible for their actions and not rely on the government for welfare/wic/foodstamps/housing, they want the central government to be small because every state is different and should have more control over what is best for its' citizens, and more so that people should not be burdened by laws and taxes. 
 
Dems want to inflate the size of the government, make people dependent on the government, because what a great way to keep voters (give them welfare to they can make money by not working, who would want to vote for the guy taking that away).  The want to control everything you do by creating more and more laws, and charging more taxes to go into their pocket.  They are just really good at making it sound like they are helping people.

It was a derogatory statement and you can tell by the reaction it got the second he said it... pretty low blow to be calling her a pig.

What a sexist bastard. ;)

patriotic to pay taxes? redistribute income?  sounds like we're heading towards becoming the U.S.S.A.

Why is it that when George Bush wants to put money into the economy it's called a bailout, but when Barry Obama does it the media calls it a Stimulus?  And the best part is it won't stimulate anything, cutting taxes stimulates the economy, it's the only proven thing to do it!


After this (which only took me a couple minutes to gather up) is there any reason that I should assume that you won't just parrot stupid lies in the future? I doubt I even scratched the surface when it comes to examples that support my position.

 :thumbsup:

he didn't magically lose the war in iraq instantaneously, and he didn't force everyone to be a muslim.

So where is it I said this? Yes no where. You put words in my mouth.

Dev I knew you would do that, and I knew I never said such a thing like you claimed I did above. You fail. Go on liberal, you missedx, fire again.
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