Suspected Cheat

[daelmun]

Not gonna jump into the argument without watching demos first, but just read that railtrail being out of sync with the crosshair was mentioned

Purely commenting on railtrail out of sync with crosshair (not how the crosshair locks on targets, though) in demos when viewing them on low timescale: that's not a proof of aimbot on it's own. I remember quite vividly the same thing being an issue when scooby was accused of aimbotting in Clanbase instagib a year back.

Quoting ax0n (http://www.clanbase.com/news_league.php?nid=171045&lid=1924):
The railbeam being out of sync with the crosshair is an issue that has been known for ages! This is in no way proof of using an aimbot. It is most likley due to the interpolation between demo blocks. When you record a q2-demo you record blocks at a certain rate, I think it's 30 blocks/s(not sure). When you later play that demo at a framrate of 120, q2 will read information from two adjacent blocks in order to interpolate information for the extra frame. As far as I know there is no way of turning this off. What you can do is setting your maxfps to the same rate as the blocks are recorded. I could not see any missplaced railbeams when I viewed demos at 30 fps.

Just view my own short clip on this site with very low timescale: http://tastyspleen.net/quake/forums/index.php?topic=595.msg24926#msg24926. I think the one rail  I hit in the lift, my crosshair isn't even near the target.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention viewing demos (recorded at 30fps?) or so with 120 fps and low timescale wont replicate the reality very well . Railbeam out of sync with crosshair when viewing demos like that happen quite often, even recorded on your own host.

[haunted]

I've been explaining the same thing on irc daelmun  ... that the rail trail not being on the crosshair is NOT the giveaway, the giveaway(s) are the movements that he does afte the shot. It is humanly impossible for a player to make a straight path like that and make a dead hault exactly where he shot, dead center where the model was (referring to frag 31), and sticks there for moments. It just doesn't happen in actual gameplay w/ nonbot players.

As for him NOT walling, it clearly seems otherwise to me. Also, most aimbots either have a wallhack built in with them, or a wallhack that co-insides with the program that they mention in the readme that you can use. (frkq2, or how glhack was for ratbot)

what do you think erik?

[haunted]

idk how many times i told you guys!!!!  fps, timescale, and/or fov will NOT alter the crosshair position on shots, and even if so, that is NOT the evidence that i am presenting that convicts him!!! It's his movement after the shot  .

[Art]

if this fps problem is the case, then whats to stop 'real' cheaters from using these as an excuse.

[[BTF]Defiant!]

if this fps problem is the case, then whats to stop 'real' cheaters from using these as an excuse.  it's gotta stop somewhere.

Because with REAL aimbot cheaters, the evidense is undenieble. Hmm, maybe I should post a few demos of the real stuff just so y'all can see the difference.

Obviously I'm not an expert, but I agree that this is inconclusive right now.

Def

[daelmun]

Yeah, good thing you pointed that out haunted, just wanted to be sure people don't start crying bots just cause they watch demos where crosshair and railtrail is out of sync.

Haven't watched the demos in question yet, well, except semilooking on that first a while back. But judging by the movie clip I agree it is really weird/suspicious how the crosshair sorta stay glued to the target after the shot is fired. None of my flickrails stays glued like that. But that is in superslowmotion, and only one rail. Hardly conclusive evidence.

Just watched the demo again, and first thought is that there is no aimbot. Gonna watch some of his other demos later, just to get a feel on how he plays.

[console]

It's his movement after the shot  .

The margin of doubt for me is that it's the very movement that's being interpolated by the client recording the demo.  (We're using a high-power microscope to peer at what may be nonhuman linear data generated by the client.)

So it seems within the realm of technical possibility, that A2G did a more human-looking snap to the target in real life, but the way the demo frames sliced it up, partly by chance, we see an exaggerated slow-motion slew right to the target and then it holds there unnaturally. 

If I knew that the movement seen was his true movement, I'd say aimbot==obvious.  But I wonder if the interpolation between the demo "blocks" is, partly by chance, giving us an inaccurate, but damning-looking picture on a few of these frags.

I dunno the answer -- just exploring hypotheses.

Regards,

[daelmun]

Yeah, that sounds like something I would say if I could use the english language a bit more fluently and would end all my posts with "Regards," 

I'd say he doesn't aimbot untill there is something more conclusive than a slo-motion democlip. But always intresting and refreshing having a debate around it without namecalling and too much personal intrests interferring.

[[BTF]Defiant!]

Here is another demo for review.

A chase demo really don't help in my opinion.. need an in-eyes-demo.

At this point I don't believe there is cheating involved.


Def

[PANTONE 7717C]

ok just to make something clear, the reason I posted a demo is I supect him of walling, not botting. I usually smell aimbots from a mile away and I also take into account that with 140 ping I might be missing out on a couple of frames which can make things look "flicky". As for him playing noobs in the demo, I don't think that matters at all here. In fact I doubt a noob will really see what's going on as he's to busy finding a weapon... and his keys. Which will make it easier for a waller to get away with a "randomly fired rocket down a corridor". (IMO DamnDirtyApe can be a decent opponent when he's warmed up and not playing shitty maps:)
I have more and probably better demos of him but never bothered to recam that shit and cut out the non-interesting stuff. Quite a while back I sent Console a pretty obvious demo (at least to me) on dm3 but he didn't know what to think of it. Not a surprise because those entity hacks (which they should be named) are so very subtle and sneaky when used in the "right" hands.

I'm a mapper and know how the engine renders maps; through precalculated PVS (potential visibility sets). Meaning the map is divided into groups of portals which can or cannot see eachother. Say you're standing in portal A. If portal A can see into portal B then everything inside portal B is already rendered regardless of solid walls; everything including entities like pickups, players and dead bodies.
Because of this a waller cannot always see the entities through every wall or surface. If you want to see for yourself what parts of a map a waller can see, you can enable a few gl_ settings which will turn on the "tris-view", this is no cheat but a mapper's tool to check performance (although R1ch thought is was better to remove the showtris command so it don't work with r1q2...)

gl_ext_multitexture 0
vid_restart
gl_showtris 1 (0 to turn it off)

You will now see a bunch of white lines which are the triangled polygons of the map. Now start to move around the map and you'll notice how there will be groups of lines popping in and out of view. A waller won't see these lines but you'll get a good idea which areas will be visible to him. (FYI a wallhack can never see though opaque watersurfaces since they are rendered as seperate areas.)

I guess I'll recam some of those other demos then that I still have to give you guys some more material to judge. (In the meantime I hope no one is going to call him names just because I think he's fake. Unless I'm standing in his room looking over his shoulder I can't be 100% sure.)

[M^tster]

This is sweet I got alot of questions answered pretty quick w/out asking them.I wondered what the framerate was for demos.Fact is my maxfps is 33 default.I have to change it to make it higher.So I was watching it pretty close to what its limited recording was @.I'm pretty sure I could reproduce shot #13 but 31 urks me.Im not crying bot, but Im questioning it thouroghly.Johhny5 need more input! 

[plastik]

the correct course of action before posting a demo accusing people of cheating, is to record a 2nd demo first, and see if you see the same thing, if not, get a few more demo's.  Everyone doesn't know what to think of that demo because no one wants to ban a good player for a demo that makes it apper as though they are cheating. and no one wants to allow a person who is cheating to continue.  So for right now, we need more demo's or proof that these shots/movements can't be possible without cheating.

[adrenal1ne]

fact is i doubt hes cheating. one shot doesnt mean shit.

[plastik]

i can't say with any facts whether he is or not, but keep this in mind.  The ultimate hack is to make the hack appear to be the players own actions, without any doubt.  If your telling me that a computer can't do that, then your full of shit.  sure, you may have seen players who are obviously cheating, but this does not mean that there aren't players out there cheating and not getting caught because their actions look real and unfabricated.  their main excuse, is they are very good or you are very bad at the game. I'm not saying any of this is true with ax2grind, but has anyone talked to him since this incident, or heard from him?  I think at the very least, whether hes cheating or not, he should be informed of the accusations against him.  We always run into situations such as these when people accuse others of cheating when they don't have ENOUGH solid evidence.  If this was solid enough evidence, then ax2grind would have been banned ASAP. I would suggest that for now, whoever is making accusations, to drop it.  Watch the person closely whomever you may be, and take it from there.  There is no point in pointing the finger, when it has been reduced to your word against his. 

[[BTF]Defiant!]

I don't believe he is cheating.  He certainly isn't making some amazing shots.  And, the issue of the shots not lining up with the crosshairs has been shown to be at most inconclusive.  He is able to make some decent jumps, decent shots, and obviously is aware of his surroundings (a sound FFA/DM player).   

The point of this thread was to look into it, not to spread accusations.   Panjoo and Don were both good about simply raising the issue for other people to review.

Ax doesn't need to say anything.  If/when I see him I'll let him know about this.  If this thread (including my posting with the movies) has made people believe he is cheating then they are either wrong or better informed than me. 

So, if you think he is, where is the evidence?

Def